Caldera Cone Testing

Give results of stoves tested. At least three test burns made in succession using 1/2 ounce of denatured alcohol and 2 cups of water. Give any and all additional conditions that exist during testing.

Stoves bought retail and Do-It-Yourself stoves. Everyone is welcome to post their results and post comments.
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zelph
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Re: Caldera Cone Testing

Postby zelph » Wed Feb 08, 2012 10:55 pm

I'd like to have a brake :D

3 test were made today using HEET as my fuel.

Water temperature to start was 65 degrees. Air temperature in my greenhouse/man cave was 50 degrees.

1st test was with 1/2 ounce fuel. No boil was acheived.

2nd test with 2/3oz fuel. No boil acheived. Had noise forming, good and hot. ;)

3rd test with 1 oz fuel. Boil was acheived and continued for 2 min.

The burner design is such that it is oxygen deficient. Which means it gives off and awful odor. Unburned fuel vapors stink like solid fuel tablets of all kinds. they all stink.

Removing the foster's can is not easy with a twig. A gloved hand works great to get a secure grip on the cone. The bottom of the foster can hangs up on the top of the cone.

More tests tomorrow.
http://www.woodgaz-stove.com/

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zelph
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Re: Caldera Cone Testing

Postby zelph » Fri Feb 10, 2012 1:00 am

2 more tests and it's confirmed. requires between 2/3 to 1 ounce of fuel to boil 2 cups.
http://www.woodgaz-stove.com/

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Re: Caldera Cone Testing

Postby zelph » Wed Mar 27, 2013 10:28 pm

I'm going to begin testing the keg set-up with the burner that comes with the cone, the 12-10 and then use the StarLyte burners, regular and modified.

The setup I have will allow us to see under the cone to observe the flame patterns. I did a couple of test burns and then did a few videos to get a feel of what I need to do to get good lighting for the videos. The one photo was made from a video frame when I first started.

When you look at the photo you will be looking at the bottom edge of the cone sitting on a piece of glass(top of picture) Under the glass is a mirror that reflects the underside of the cone. The 12-10 burner is in the center. You are looking at the bottom of the burner via the mirror. The video recorder is sitting on the glass next to the cone looking down through the glass in order to record the flame patterns. Tomorrow I'll take a photo of the set-up. The light colored area around the cone is a view of the sky looking through the greenhouse glass. It's a reflection coming from the mirror. The upper left of the photo is the gravel floor of my greenhouse.

I did this preliminary set-up this evening just before sunset.

The first minute of the video shows the StarLyte burner close to the bottom of the foster pot. The remainder of the video shows the StarLyte farther away from the bottom of the pot. The farther away from the pot, the more turbulant the flame action.

The videos will have to be made under dark conditions so you'll be able to see clearly the flame patterns. I may use some Iso91 to get some color into the flames so they show up better.

My initial tests with the 12-10 stove tells me there is incomplete combustion going on due to the smell coming off the stove. I'm using yellow HEET. (It was handy ;) ) I usually use denatured. I may have mentioned the smell in previous posts, dunno. Once the 12-10 stove heats up it starts to burn in a "hot" fashion. Lots of action going on, lots of fuel vaporizing but not all is igniting I suspect. Not enough incoming and exiting air for the amount of fuel coming off the stove. You stove builder out ther know what I'm refering to when I say the "smell" indicates incomplete combustion. With all that fuel wanting to burn there is lots of air going every which way. There is slight air movement in my greenhouse. That air movement has an affect on the flame pattern. If I put a windscreen on the breeze side, the flame pattern calms down a bit.

Now remember, when you look at the photo, picture yourself looking down through a sheet of glass that has a mirror under it. The base of the cone is at the top of the photo. Under the cone is the 12-10 burner. Hope you can get oriented correctly.

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zelph
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Re: Caldera Cone Testing

Postby zelph » Thu Mar 28, 2013 10:12 am

Here is the first video I did yesterday. If you concentrate on the flame pattern you'll see it mostly going to the left side of the pot and up the side. That side is where the closure of the cone is. It seems as if most of the air enters at the base of the cone at that place and immediately rises causing the flames to be drawn to the upward movement at that side of the cone. As the burner heats up, air movements are all over the interior and makes the flame pattern to be in every direction. At that point there may be a positive air pressure being built up within the cone. Makes me think of an oven with insufficient air exhaust. Maybe that is when the "smell" occurs. There is a thread over at backpackinglight.com where someone said they experienced a bad smell while testing a cone. I'll try to locate that today and give a link to it.



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zelph
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Re: Caldera Cone Testing

Postby zelph » Thu Mar 28, 2013 10:10 pm

This is what the set-up looks like:
Image


This photobucket video shows how off center the flame burns using the 12-10 burner.(click on it)

Image
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cruiser
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Caldera Cone conundrum

Postby cruiser » Tue Apr 23, 2013 12:56 pm

I am new to the site.
I am taking my time.
I am reading.
I am learning.
I am allowing it all to soak in.

But now ... I have crossed some strange line and become confused all over again. This was much easier when I knew nothing.

My present conundrum ... why does the Starlyte stove work well with a Caldera-cone-type set-up that traps heat around the stove?

As I delve deeply into reading about the origins and inspiration of the design, I read that the magic of the "Origo" material is proported to be that it stays relatively cool ... a result of the endothermic evaporation of the liquid fuel and the low thermal conductivity of the material. Additionally the Origo design pushes the point of combustion up and away from the body of the fuel reservoir. This "coolness" factor is claimed to slow the rate of combustion and deliver higher efficiency in a safe and controlled reaction. Okay. After reading a million pages and looking at a thousand pictures ... I think I understand. Lets just "say" I understand.

But then, in its miniature Starlyte form, the darn thing appears to perform exceptionally well in a small hyper-heated space of a Caldera cone. What is going on here? Based on what I am pretending to understand, I would think you would want the body of the stove kept out of the hot zone. Is the "coolness" just Dometic marketing babble? Is the design/construction of the Starlyte so different from its Origo inspiration that "coolness" no longer matters? Or is it just that as long as the liquid fuel is not boiling (which the "Origo" material prevents) the temperature of the fuel on this scale simply does not matter?

Would there be any benefit to insulating or separating the Starlyte from the hades-heat inside the Caldera cone? The "modified" Starlyte for the Caldera cone reduces surface area and cuts off fuel ... but why is heat and elevated rate of evaporation not the enemy here?

disc1.jpg
hijacked photo of a reflector that also shields the body of the stove ... looks slightly shakespearean


I took this photo from you, Zelph ... I have read enough to know you only have a foggy sense of what photos you have posted on-line ... as an example of a way to shield the body of the stove from the heat it is producing. Additionally you could then also "open" the bottom of the cone up to the level of the burner. Would this be a waste of time and material in the case of the starlyte and the CC?

Mind you, I happily used a Starlyte and a CC for a "yo-yo" thru hike. For 8 continuous months I never had an issue. Never a doubt. Never a question. If asked, I would proudly state I wouldn't change a single thing about my system. Then I came home and started reading.

Stupid brain. This is why I hated you in High School.

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zelph
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Re: Caldera Cone Testing

Postby zelph » Tue Apr 23, 2013 3:46 pm

Or is it just that as long as the liquid fuel is not boiling (which the "Origo" material prevents) the temperature of the fuel on this scale simply does not matter?


I think that is the major reason for the burner working so well and also the low profile of it. It sits in the cool zone of my Keg Cone.

The cone seems to have plenty of incoming and exiting air to keep both the StarLyte and 12-10 operating well. I don't know why I'm seeing 12-10 stoves burned to a deformed state. Users must be priming the stove with lots of fuel to make them look so " dog eared"/charred.

The design of the "Origo" stove is such that radiant heat can't get to the fuel canister and air is drawn up around the canister and up thru the flame concenrator and up to the pot bottom. I love the design and how well the stove works. I went crazy with how well they work. I now have 3 double burners and 1 single burner, plus 2 extra fuel containers. I'm well prepared for emergencies :mrgreen: As we all know, wick type stoves can burn many different fuels. ;) One of my Origo double burner stoves is also electric. When I go rv'ing and use a site with electric during the hot summer months I use the stove outside on a picnic table in the electric mode. Before I ever purchased an Origo a friend of mine let me use his so I could test it. I liked it and made a purchase of a single burner. Since then I made more purchases. I'm in favor of alcohol stoves and wood stoves :D

Many owners of the Caldera Cone systems are having excellent results with the regular and modified StarLyte burners. One user from Turkey is getting awesome efficiency with both. Boiling 2 cups with less than 15ml of denatured alcohol. So I say we don't need to alter the design of the cone (open up the bottom) it's not broke, we won't fix. :mrgreen: But our brains want "better" :lol: so we tinker. Lots of those types over on backpackinglight.com

The draft on my keg-cone looks decent enough that even a Venom Super Stove might work well. I think I'll go out there now and try it. :D Be back later to let you know how it went.
http://www.woodgaz-stove.com/

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cruiser
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Re: Caldera Cone Testing

Postby cruiser » Tue Apr 23, 2013 4:11 pm

So the drafting keeps the bottom of the cone and the stove cool? So why does a ground reflector up the efficiency ante ... or have those results been greatly exaggerated?

I take your point and I guess I should have turned to the direct evidence at hand. I have a Starlyte that has been used and abused in a Caldera cone for an extended period of time. I do not see any sign of extensive char or deformation.

starlyte1.jpg
My little Star after many many uses inside a CC


I am having fun digging through all the old designs, projects and research though ... even if I am becoming more confused as a result.

PS: "So I say we don't need to alter the design ... it's not broke, we won't fix. But our brains want "better" so we tinker. Lots of those types over on backpackinglight.com". Is this coming from the same guy that has about 1,000 versions of the Starlyte pot-stand alone? :lol:

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zelph
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Re: Caldera Cone Testing

Postby zelph » Tue Apr 23, 2013 9:22 pm

so the drafting keeps the bottom of the cone and the stove cool? So why does a ground reflector up the efficiency ante ... or have those results been greatly exaggerated?


The StarLyte burner gets hot and the bottom of the cone also. I say the ground reflector is an exaggeration.
I tested one of my Venom super Stoves in my cone today and was amazed at how much drafting is going on in the cone. (I have the keg-cone) The cone is a tall chimney :o it really sucks up the air from the holes and slot at it's base. 3/4oz fuel could not get a boil of 2 cups 55 degree water and air temps in my garage. I'm using my tepered glass and mirror set-up to view what is going on under the cone.

The next test was using a fishy smelling Esbit cube in the Esbitmizer burner. It was an easy boil of 2 cups. It could have boiled 3 cups in the foster's pot with ease using 1 cube.

cruiser, what cone are you using the StaLyte under?
http://www.woodgaz-stove.com/

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cruiser
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Re: Caldera Cone Testing

Postby cruiser » Tue Apr 23, 2013 11:55 pm

Here comes more information than you could ever possibly need:

My stove, since birth, has been used exclusively with a Ti-Tri sidewinder with a tall narrow pot ... an MLD 850. I use tent stakes as per TD design and I prop my stove up on the honeycomb mesh that comes with the inferno thing-a-ma-jig. I also use the single piece floor plate. She has lived on a nearly exclusive diet of DA, having tasted Heet only once. I keep my fuel in a bottle with a packafeather squirt-top for quick and precise delivery. I made a cap for the stove from an old pill bottle (you didn't offer caps yet and I couldn't find a can of desolder wick) and adorned said cap with a picture of the "Heat Miser". It reminds me of my wife.

I like my system ... but I am working on reducing the number of moving pieces. Plus, I now seem to be obsessed with this site so I am probably going to screw it all up in some horrible, disastrous experiment sometime very soon. Breaking perfectly useful things for no apparent reason just happens to be my super-power.

Just curious ... In your study of the Starlyte in a cone why don't you use a transparent vessel for a direct viewing angle ... like the borosilicate glass beakers you referenced in past threads?


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