Imitation is the most sincere form of flattery...

Post your new stove ideas here! All stoves welcome.
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Ridgerunner
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Re: Imitation is the most sincere form of flattery...

Post by Ridgerunner » Sat Jan 22, 2011 12:09 pm

oops56, nice change of subject. Very simple stove that works. Another idea would be to just carry jell fuel and squeeze out what you need in a thimble or other container. In the mean time, lets put some water on the fire, let this one smolder out, and move one to other subject matters ;)
"Many of lifes failures are people who did not realize how close they were to success when they gave up".....Thomas Edison

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realityguy
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Re: Imitation is the most sincere form of flattery...

Post by realityguy » Sat Jan 22, 2011 12:27 pm

JR,I really think you should ask others that sell similar items in your stove kit that are already selling those portions how they feel about your idea..and trying to sell it within their normal website or forum where they have spent a lot of time building PR and a name for themselves.I'm pretty sure you'll get a "like" reaction and maybe a one finger salute to go with it!I suggest you do as others have said and set up your own website to sell your wares.
From the first time I started reading your posts,the Jolly Roger "pirate" name seemed appropriate..and one of the reasons I changed my signature to show my views and to not reflect on others that also post here or be representative of the site.
People have been pretty damn cordial about your posting and most reflecting their own views in the matter.The forum was more than likely temporarily closed to cool down participants in a heated debate for a more rational approach to the matter..and opened back up for you and others to express their views.You can read the expressed views of other posters here.
One thing is for sure..I wouldn't buy your set... I would rather just go out and pick up the parts locally for more than likely cheaper.Stoves?..I don't need any more..have too many apple boxes full already and my own that I offer instructions for making FREELY on that work better.To be honest,there isn't anything "unique" enough about your stove that makes it worth purchasing.Most people can make their own and would enjoy doing so just for the accomplishment.
Your baking and that in the plastic is interesting,beyond that your posts haven't really been worth reading and are getting more and more like just ranting..JMO...
The views and opinions expressed by this person are his own and not the general consensus of others on this website.Realityguy

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Ridgerunner
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Re: Imitation is the most sincere form of flattery...

Post by Ridgerunner » Sat Jan 22, 2011 12:58 pm

Really now Cuz. JP never said he wanted to sell his wares on this site or link to his product specifically. I like the fact that he shared his knowledge of how to crimp the foil for a windscreen. Isn't that what we are all about; sharing ideas AND construction methods? I, personally had looked and wondered if that crimper would work for soft metal but was not going to shell out the money to find out. Now I know if I would want to make some screens for the kits I give to friends.
Yes his stove is similar to the early WBS but he says the container is different and has different burn characteristics. Many people make their own versions of others well establised stoves and sell them on the internet but I believe that most people will always go to the well established original product. Look how people have copied the trangia. The chinese seem to be masters of taking a good product, making a descent copy and selling it for a cheaper price. I know what you are thinking and you are wrong, I am not picking sides. I think sometimes we are too quick to draw conclusions. JP has come here and shared his ideas. I find it comical that a freaking windscreen can get peoples bowels in an uproar :roll: If JP decides to sell his kit, I'm sure the windscreen is the last thing people are interested in and the stove would be the reason they buy the kit. I suspect it will not sell well but that is JMHO. I think this subject would have died out if we did not keep fueling the fire but that is what we do best, I guess :roll:
"Many of lifes failures are people who did not realize how close they were to success when they gave up".....Thomas Edison

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zelph
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Re: Imitation is the most sincere form of flattery...

Post by zelph » Sat Jan 22, 2011 1:36 pm

Before coming here his intentions were to sell a kit.

Re: "Jack" Stove
Postby JollyRogers » Wed Dec 29, 2010 1:03 pm
Thank you. As I have said before, I'm not trying to reinvent the wheel or anything. This is all stuff people have made before. I'm just trying to tweak it a little to make the whole cook set more versatile.
I am working on my windscreen that can double as a wood-burner for this cook set. After discussions here, (thanks guys), I have decided to go with the bail handle on the cook pot. Once these are finished this set should be ready for production.
I am hoping to have the cook sets for sale mid-January,
Frankly, if I'm putting my name on a product I want people to know it will perform as advertised.
Now the Jack Stove and cook set is only my first venture into this field. I fully intend to keep tinkering and hopefully adding new purpose built stoves and cook sets/accessories as time goes on.
http://www.woodgaz-stove.com/

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Re: Imitation is the most sincere form of flattery...

Post by realityguy » Sat Jan 22, 2011 2:06 pm

RR..My point with the "contact other sellers of similar items","one finger salute","pirate" was basically that he'd more than likely get treated worse than he did here.Most sellers don't care for other people trying to gain access to the market by running their items through established websites..pitching similar items or portions thereof...Sorry,but I see the thread as advertising his product on an established website.Most other sites would probably ban him and eliminate his posts.So far..that hasn't happened here.
I was hoping he'd slow down,take a look at things from the other side,and maybe he might read/see other people views that have been posted here.
I wouldn't bake like that because of the steaming/wet factor..but did give him credit for posting that as good information on the forums.
As far as the rants about Zelph/windscreens/rights to make them..well..we don't need that here and it should be a PM matter between him and Zelph.I also think the matter should be dropped on the forums.If he wants to make his windscreens that way,that's his choice.If he wants to post positive features and ideas..fine.I'm all for it.Otherwise i just expressed my views.
The views and opinions expressed by this person are his own and not the general consensus of others on this website.Realityguy

sudden
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Re: Imitation is the most sincere form of flattery...

Post by sudden » Sat Jan 22, 2011 2:33 pm

realityguy wrote:RR..My point with the "contact other sellers of similar items","one finger salute","pirate" was basically that he'd more than likely get treated worse than he did here.Most sellers don't care for other people trying to gain access to the market by running their items through established websites..pitching similar items or portions thereof...Sorry,but I see the thread as advertising his product on an established website.Most other sites would probably ban him and eliminate his posts.So far..that hasn't happened here.
I was hoping he'd slow down,take a look at things from the other side,and maybe he might read/see other people views that have been posted here.
I wouldn't bake like that because of the steaming/wet factor..but did give him credit for posting that as good information on the forums.
As far as the rants about Zelph/windscreens/rights to make them..well..we don't need that here and it should be a PM matter between him and Zelph.I also think the matter should be dropped on the forums.If he wants to make his windscreens that way,that's his choice.If he wants to post positive features and ideas..fine.I'm all for it.Otherwise i just expressed my views.
Agreed.

Very immature posting by you jolly, made worse by your looking for "public outcry" to support your position when you get an answer you don't like.

Now let's see if you can muster up an apology for acting the fool and let us move on please. A public apology to the rest of us for dragging us into your rant and a PM apology to zelph. Learn to keep your arguments and business meetings private please. You have talent and good ideas. Please put this behind you if you can and settle in. This is a site full of helpful people.

Sorry if the words seem harsh.

sudden
"People are not persuaded by what we say, but rather by what they understand."

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ConnieD
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Re: Imitation is the most sincere form of flattery...

Post by ConnieD » Sat Jan 22, 2011 3:37 pm

I do take the point zelph is generous with instructions and "know-how".

I really thought that aspect of his business, was for DIY/MYOG (Do It Yourself/Make Your Own Gear) folks.

These are the people who like to make things for the satisfaction is brings. Others like to make things for the independence it brings: they can make another.

However, there are some people who do not have "expendable income" to be able to make the purchase.

Many people in the "hiking and backpacking community" chose backpacking because it is a relatively inexpensive activity compared to most.

Okay, I admit it, I am in the latter category.

Me? I would rather live in a car than not purchase gear.

Did I just purchase another zelph stove? I did.

I do think it is bad form to sell other person's products.

He has had negotiations with franchised stores. This is not just a "hobby".

He has been tooling up, with big equipment purchases, to meet the present demand in the online backpacking community.

And I hope, zelph is going to sell to a wider independent "camping" community.

I brought my zelph stoves to Oregon Mountain Community and to Next Adventure, in Portland, OR to show their purchasing agent.

Most of all, zelph has done a great deal to bring up the quality of backpacking stoves.

I know I was very reluctant to buy one, after I had purchased the Trangia that only works well with all the rest of the kit. At least, now, there is a less bulky and more lightweight kit available.

I know I wasn't convinced an alcohol stove was "up to the job" in cold weather or at higher altitude.

The first backpacking alcohol stoves I purchased are pictured in my avatar photo: it is a picture of two Super Stoves made by zelph.

It hasn't been just "trial and error". If you read the board, there is a great deal of science.

He has been teaching others. Participants in the forum teach others.

But no one here sells another's product.

I do know from my college classes for patent of product design or any design patent, as well as, a manufacturing process patent, and, copyright law for written material and graphic art, photos, as well as, art, it isn't necessary to file the patent or the copyright.

Then, too, there are the intellectual property laws.

For the most part, this just doesn't come up, because by and large most people in the backpacking community do not infringe on another's rights.

I know I backpack, and, I am into adventure sports away from "civilization" because I am free from that kind of aggression "out there".

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Re: Imitation is the most sincere form of flattery...

Post by JollyRogers » Sat Jan 22, 2011 5:13 pm

zelph wrote:Before coming here his intentions were to sell a kit.

Re: "Jack" Stove
Postby JollyRogers » Wed Dec 29, 2010 1:03 pm
Thank you. As I have said before, I'm not trying to reinvent the wheel or anything. This is all stuff people have made before. I'm just trying to tweak it a little to make the whole cook set more versatile.
I am working on my windscreen that can double as a wood-burner for this cook set. After discussions here, (thanks guys), I have decided to go with the bail handle on the cook pot. Once these are finished this set should be ready for production.
I am hoping to have the cook sets for sale mid-January,
Frankly, if I'm putting my name on a product I want people to know it will perform as advertised.
Now the Jack Stove and cook set is only my first venture into this field. I fully intend to keep tinkering and hopefully adding new purpose built stoves and cook sets/accessories as time goes on.
You are absolutely right. From day 1 I made my intentions known, and yet I have never advertised a link or tried to sell anything on this site. Why do you think that is?
This is Zelph's site. I'm not coming here to hawk my wares. I'm here to share ideas. (Which I have done). Someone said they don't like my baking idea. Great. That doesn't make my contributions any less valid.
realityguy - You show me 1 place where I have used this site to sell anything. You show me a link to my product or a price for my cook set taken from this site. You show me 1 instance of where I attempted to make money from this web site. If you can't do that then what are you basing your argument on? As to my name... my last name is Rogers, I was in the Navy... from most of my life people have referred to me as some form of "Rogers", be it Mr., Buck, Roy, Ginger or Jolly, again, another unfounded assumption.

As for you not buying my set, that's ok. Because I never tried to sell it to you!
Why do you think that is? You are not my target demographic. Actually no one on this site is. That's kind of the point. I have no illusions that this site will generate any revenue for me. That would be like going to a site full of beer brewers and trying to sell them a kit to brew beer. :roll:
Everyone here already has a cook set/stove, or is more than capable of building one. Most likely one that will work better with the cook set that they already have. Again, it is ridiculous to think I am here to generate business. It never ceases to amaze me how cynical people can be and how many will jump to conclusions based on conspiracy theories before even giving any rational thought to the matter.
So for those who are just skimming...
I didn't come to a stove makers site to sell stoves! I don't want to sell anything here! I have never attempted to sell anything here! PROVE ME WRONG!

For those trying to compare my stove to the WB stove... unless you have one of my stoves and a WB stove to compare it to you are just making assumptions about a product you have no first hand knowledge about. Looks like there is more than 1 stove cult on the internet after all. :roll:

The fact is every copy of my stove in circulation today was given out for free and every one of them can be accounted for. So it really surprises me to see several people who claim that I have copied the WB when I know for a fact none of you have actually seen my stove in person.

First off, I don't use beer bottles. My bottles are purchased from the manufacturer and are a completely different size/shape. There is no paint or coatings to clean off. They aren't even close to the size/shape of a beer bottle. They have different size/number holes for the burners. The WB is a rolled stove. Mine is riveted, a newer version may be welded. (Gosh! If I use alumaweld sticks to build stoves will I be in violation of the stovie code again? :roll: ) WB was riveted at one time but then again so were/are a lot of stoves. (Rivets are fasteners, not a design. That's like saying my stove burns alcohol and therefore I stole the design from another stove that burns alcohol.) The WB stove is a larger burn pattern that will not work with small pots. The inner wall of the WB is nothing like the inner wall of th Jack Stove, not even close to the same shape.

The only similarities are as follows: They burn alcohol, they both are based off of the principle of a pressurized stove, they are shiny, they have holes in the sides, they don't use a pot stand and they both are made out of some kind of aluminum bottle.

You show me 1 person who makes/sells alcohol stoves that doesn't sell something that fits that description.

ridebks - Again, you show me where I bashed Zelph. I bet I can provide places where I complimented him at least 3 to 1 of your imagined insults. I tried sending a PM and it didn't look like it went through. It wasn't because I didn't get the answer I wanted. I actually got the answer I wanted. "see if it's similar or an exact copy."

I just didn't want to have to invest in all of the tools/materials to send a prototype for something he might change his mind about later. It's a WINDSCREEN! Know what else is a windscreen? ROCKS! It isn't some super secret design. Just because Zelph never made his process known doesn't mean someone else can't do it. I have yet to see anyone do a side-by-side comparison of my windscreen to Zelph's.
The windscreen has the look of a heat exchanger or corrugated cardboard. Zelph didn't invent heat exchangers, corrugated cardboard or windscreens, nor did he invent texturing or the crimper that makes metal wavy. He had a good idea. He shared it with the world. YAY! FOR PROGRESS! :roll:

My eye-rolling icon is almost spent.

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russb
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Re: Imitation is the most sincere form of flattery...

Post by russb » Sat Jan 22, 2011 5:26 pm

Thou doth protest too much, methinks. (with aplogies to Wm Shakespeare.)

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Re: Imitation is the most sincere form of flattery...

Post by JollyRogers » Sat Jan 22, 2011 5:33 pm

russb- Good call.

Zelph, either you are upset or you aren't. That's the million dollar question. You can end this right now.

Instead of letting this digress into, well... what it has digressed into... speak up. I see no reason for this to continue. You can contact me at any time.

I fulfilled your requirements. It is obvious my windscreen is similar and not an exact copy. If you don't want me here then say so.

Letting this fester serves no good purpose.

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